Home About Fawn Fawn's Blog Books Speaking Press Clips Contact Fawn       Press Clips     WashingtonPost.com Career Advice Fawn Germer Author Friday, November 12, 2004; 11:00 a.m. ET For a woman to become successful in the workplace, she has to play by the rules, right? Wrong! Fawn Germer, author of "Mustang Sallies: Success Secrets of Women Who Refuse to Run with the Herd" (Perigee), tells how being tame is not a prerequisite for success. Based on interviews with more than fifty world-famous trailblazers like Hilary Clinton, Carly Fiorina, and Erin Brokovich, "Mustang Sallies" shows every spirited woman how to: Win arguments without making enemies Overcome the isolation of leaving the herd Create a sisterhood of support Compromise without selling out Succeed by being your true self The discussion follows below. washingtonpost.com: Good morning!!! Today we have a special guest Fawn Germer, author of "Mustang Sallies: Success Secrets of Women Who Refuse to Run With the Herd" (Perigee Books). Fawn, can you tell us about the book, and what inspired you to write it. Fawn Germer: Sure. I was the keynote speaker at a conference in Arizona and about 10 executive women asked me to head to Mexico for dinner. This one woman said, "I don't know what my problem is. People either love me or hate me. I'm told that I come on too strong. I've been called a 'bitch.' What do you think I should do?" So, I wondered, "Why the heck is she asking me that? That's MY problem!" And it hit me that the experiences that made me feel so isolated and torn up might not be unique. That other women may have the same experiences. Through interviewing everyone from Hillary Clinton to Erin Brockovich and Martina Navratilova for Mustang Sallies, I found that these experiences are NOT unique. That many women feel like misfits, but that the truly successful ones keep charging ahead despite the insecurities. McLean, Va.: I have been working at a position as a temp for two months. I went through a staffing agency to get a job. I have recently been offered a new position and they are requesting that I start within one week. How do I go about resigning my position at this current company and staffing company since I am giving them less than a two week notice. Thanks! Fawn Germer: You always have to remember that you are in business for yourself, so the permanent position has to be your first priority. That said, you can write a good, personal letter of thanks to your current boss and do what you can to have the temp agency come through for them again. But, you have to move forward. That's just business. Your boss will understand that. Washington, D.C.: This may not be quite up your alley, but here goes. I just found out I have an interview next week, and they want me to fill out an employment questionnaire. One of the questions is current salary (note they aren't asking what my desired salary is). Do you recommend leaving that question blank or filling it out? Fawn Germer: I suggest you leave it blank until you are asked again. Odds are, you will be asked. And, this is a tricky situation. You don't want to lie, but they are going to structure an offer around what you are currently earning. So, do what your gut tells you to do. Anonymous: I once overheard a female supervisor tell a male subordinate that if he "didn't have the balls" to do a task she requested, that she did. Wasn't that comment VERY inappropriate, or do I not get that woman administrators sometimes need to manage as if they were tough men? Fawn Germer: Well, yes. That was extremely inappropriate. But, I'm glad she has the balls to get things done. If only she had the good sense to watch her mouth! Washington, D.C.: I have applied to, and been accepted for, an academic program that will start in January. This program will take the next 5 years to complete. It will start here and the last 3 years will be elsewhere. This is a direction that will be really exciting, and I'm in a financial position to do it without too much trouble. I am burnt out on my job function. I like my office, I like our vision. I deferred from September to January because I felt excited about the direction we are going and I wanted to help out. I have been offered a different line of work in the same department. I care about the organization, I like my boss, my upper-level boss is fun and inspiring, but personally, the job itself makes me bored and tired. The new opportunity I do not think will suit me either--it's a very suit and travel sort of job. The complicating factor in the school question is that I am married to a lawyer. He has partnership questions to consider, and frankly, will always make 3-4 times as much as I will. If we need to leave town in tow. Fawn Germer: So, your choice is taking off in a fabulous new direction or doing work that leaves you feeling a little cold? BE A MUSTANG SALLY. Just take the risk and do what is going to spark some new energy. The one thing successful women all tell me is that you have to take huge risks to achieve huge success. JUST GO FOR IT. It is never easy to make big changes, and you have to expect obstacles and maneuver around them. You never know how close you are to turning the corner and succeeding. Stick with it. NOTHING is more fun than doing work that really calls you. I left journalism to be a speaker and author, and I love every minute of my new career. Every microsecond! This is not work for me, and if you do what you love, it won't be work for you. Go do what matters to you. Finally, regarding juggling two careers with your husband: When I was married, that was the biggest issue we had. I do believe that any partnership involves sacrifice on both parts. Even if your husband makes more money than you, you are entitled to a challenging and rewarding career. Period. Lyme, Conn.: I think Helen Thomas is a fantastic journalist. Did you interview her for your book? If so, did she provide any useful advice? Fawn Germer: I LOVE Helen Thomas. She was one of the first women to come on board when I wrote my first book, Hard Won Wisdom. I remember telling her that I kept getting into trouble and being told that I didn't know my place. She said, "What is your place? It's what YOU say it is, not what THEY say it is." Helen is so extraordinary. She really fought the battles so women journalists like me could have an easier time of it. Pittsburgh, Penn.: Lots of the women you interviewed seemed to 'make it big' when they were young and kept going, even if it took time to achieve top jobs. What about the rest of us? I see friends who are late bloomers who feel stymied with the current structure of corporations and institutions. No one wants to take a risk on anyone except it seems a young (cheap) tech-savvy worker. Fawn Germer: No, no, no! That's not true. Look at Janet L. Robinson, the CEO of the New York Times. She was a second grade teacher until she took a big risk in her thirties and went into business. Now she is the most powerful woman in publishing in the world -- and an absolute great mustang woman. The best thing you can do is build your network. Let people feel invested in who you are and what you want to do with your life. My book, Mustang Sallies, talks about strategically building a network of mentors and advocates. That's crucial. Age is just an excuse not to try. Just do it. You can ALWAYS make changes. I didn't leave journalism to become an author until I was 39. I have had a lot of people bet on me in this new role, and they will bet on you if you have a clear vision of what you want to accomplish. Boulder, Colorado: I work in a male-dominated field. When I get extremely frustrated or upset, I cry. I rarely do this in front of other people because I have a semi-private office or I go immediately to the ladies' room, but occasionally there have been witnesses. My company has many customers, with whom I deal directly, that believe a woman cannot do this job. How can I gain control of my emotions and instill confidence in my customers that regardless of my gender, I am more than capable of solving their problem? Fawn Germer: Hey, I feel for you. I cried at work -- once. It was such a huge mistake because it forever destroyed the power balance I'd achieved with a boss/mentor. It just makes some men very, very uncomfortable. I remember interviewing Cokie Roberts and her saying she has the same problem with crying. Well, that's just a hormonal thing we have to deal with. We get frustrated, we cry. It's not the end of the world. BUT, when you feel it coming on, go get a drink of water. Excuse yourself and go to the bathroom. Just stand up and say, "I think we need to revisit this later after we've thought it through." GET OUT OF THERE! There is no crime in crying, but do what you can to keep it hidden. Naperville, Ill.: I cut back to part-time self-employed work for several years to raise kids, and now I'm seeking to get back into the workforce full-tilt. The status quo is disquieting: no good jobs for women in their 40s who chose to go part-time; no real opportunity to make a significant income and to overcome the years on a lesser track. How do you suggest women like myself buck these trends and chart a confident course for ourselves, especially since our self-confidence may be vulnerable? Thanks. Fawn Germer: Network, Sister! The way we can chart more confident courses is to get others to see that we have vision, drive and direction. If you can get others to invest in your success, you can make anything happen. How do you do that when you are a part-timer wanting in? You do it in a very non-threatening way. Target potential mentors or advocates and send them letters saying you'd like to go for coffee or lunch to get a little feedback on your career plans to get back in the business world. Say right out, "I'm not going to ask you for a job. I just want your advice," That takes the pressure off. Anytown, USA: Hi! Thanks for doing this today. My issue: One of my office mates has been working most of his days from home since he and his wife had a baby. When he does come in once every few weeks, he brings said baby in for the work day. The baby, naturally, cries, and it's very distracting. His boss has OK'ed this set up, which is easy for him to do since his boss is in another state. There's really no one I can go to or nothing I can do to stop this, besides asking the guy directly, which of course makes -me- look heartless. What do you think? Fawn Germer: I think I am lucky I work at home. A crying baby does not belong within earshot of other workers. Talk to your boss. You shouldn't have to be the heavy in this situation. Capitol Hill, D.C.: Hi Fawn, Here is something maybe you can appreciate. Talking about how being a Mustang Sally won't always make you popular, I once left a job for another opportunity. I had worked really hard in finishing graduate school and searching for better job opportunities. Well, my hard work had paid off and I was offered an AMAZING job -- one I'd be a fool not to take. Funny enough, when I resigned from my current, going-nowhere job, my boss (a woman) just went nuts. She became so incredibly resentful, jealous, and snippy that I informed her that my 'two weeks notice' had now become one. I left that Friday, enjoyed a week off before my new job, and I am currenlty loving my new occupation. No, my past supervisor is not my biggest fan, but it reminded me that you've got to make yourself happy and not worry about others. Fawn Germer: Good for you, Mustang Woman! I hope others follow your lead and make the changes that need to be made! Washington, D.C.: I love your new book! It re-energizes me to keep going on my path. Thank you! My question is - in doing this book, what did you learn about Mustang Sallies and what is the reaction of other women leaders to your new book? Fawn Germer: The feedback on the book has been so great -- I think because so many of those trailblazing women validate what we've been feeling all along. It is hard being a strong woman in a world that is just now getting used to strong women. We survive the difficulty by connecting with other mustangs and moving forward on our paths. When we are clearing new trails, it's important to remember that we won't always get the recognition or accolades we deserve. The status quo doesn't like change, and mustangs are, quite naturally, change agents. So, we have to just charge forward in our discomfort zones and do what we need to do. The good thing is, we are making it easier for the next wave of mustangs. I look at what the women before us did to blaze trail for us, and we owe them so much. I just wonder, in 20 years, how many women are going to be called bitches when they act firm. I hope all that labeling and negativity goes away so we can simply run free. Washington, D.C.: Hi Fawn, I have accepted a position with a new company and am very excited about starting soon. After accpeting the position I ran into an accuaintance who also works for this company. When I told him that I am going to be working for the same company he said to me that he wished I had talked to him first because he hates the company and would have told me not to accept the position. I am trying to not let this get to me too much since this is only one person's opinion and this is a very large company with many divisions, but now he has put doubts in my head. I don't know this person very well so I don't know how much to take this opinion into consideration. It is always scary starting a new position with a new company, and now I am even more nervous. Fawn Germer: Don't listen to that guy! I remember being 23 years old and going to my first day of work at a full-time job at a newspaper. It was another reporter's last day. He told me, "YOU ARE GOING TO HATE IT HERE!" And, he was so wrong. That was the best job I ever had. I wouldn't have traded a single moment there. So, enjoy your new challenge. And, stop valuing the input of others over what's in your own head! Del Ray, Va.: I'm 33 and have 2 kids - 6 months and 3 years. I've been having problems juggling everything since I went back to work fulltime but thought things would eventually calm down. They haven't so I'd been thinking of resigning in December. An opportunity came up to speak at a conference in January, and, since I couldn't think of a plausabile excuse for not doing it I told my boss of my plans. I had originally asked them to let me work less hours when I came back from my maternity leave but they said no. My boss insisted that we tell HR the next week as our reviews are due in mid-November. I asked HR to keep this confidential until we were closer to my planned last day, December 23. Instead they've leaked it to staff and now half the office knows. Now they are pressuring me to submit my resignation letter. To be honest I wasn't 100% decided on what I was doing, that is why I asked that it be kept confidential. I mentioned this to my boss who I consider to be a friend. She mentioned to HR that I might decide to change my mind and they told her that "I had made a verbal contract to resign and now it was up to them to decide to keep me or not". Besides feeling completely offended, I've been there 5 years with great reviews, I'm really hurt. I knew the HR person did not care for me, and that she was completely unprofessional (the leak came from her) - but I never expected her to try and force me out now. What to do? I've already gone to the CEO about the leak. I guess I'm just better off without them but still. Any advice? Fawn Germer: What a lot of miscommunication!I think you state, firmly and in writing, that you did not tender your resignation and that you are quite concerned that your inquiries were so distorted. Restate your commitment to your job and just get rid of the immediate issue before making the decision to stay or go. You do not have to let that HR gossip pressure you into anything. And, if you feel like leaving the job, leave it. But, don't leave it because of distortion and miscommunication. Washington, D.C.: Greetings from a D.C. fan! I've always believed that one of the key weapons we female professionals have in our workplace arsenal is "women's intuition." Yet, I rarely hear this discussed or have women compare notes as to how to harness this capability. What are your thoughts? Fawn Germer: I think you are straight on about that one, and a number of the women in Mustang Sallies have talked about it. We do have intuition when it comes to gut decisions, dealing with others and maneuvering through difficult situations. Don't ignore what your gut is telling you! That's an asset that can make you even more successful. You know when something feels right -- and when it doesn't. Pay attention. Washington, D.C.: When I was starting to look for a job right out of law school I spoke to a number of women who were very successful lawyers. One thing struck me about almost all of them. If they were of a certain age, they made a very big deal about how hard it had been for them to succeed in a then-male dominated world. They were top of their class, worked absurdly long hours--at some cost to their family lives, they paid for their success. I respect what these women and their cohorts did. They paved the way for me and my generation. However, many of these women have the attitude that since they martyred themselves, so should we. I can't buy into that. I believe that a good work ethic is not antithetical to having a robust family/personal life, and I structure my employment requirements around that. Am I wrong? Fawn Germer: What's with the "us v. them" thinking? First of all, it's a little insulting to refer to the previous generation as martyrs. Are you kidding me? Do you realize what they went through on a day to day basis so that you could go to work and NOT have the same problems? Think about it. Just 85 years ago, we didn't have the right to vote. Thirty years ago, there were two sets of classified ads: One for jobs for men, one for jobs for women. We couldn't get charge cards in our own names. When it came to domestic violence, we were asked what we did to "provoke" the man. Sister, connect with your older sisters instead of resenting them. ASK what they went through. Otherwise, you risk sounding like an undeserving brat. They probably would have killed to have some of the work options you have. But, don't insult them for being different. Seriously, they changed the world so that you could even think of these things. Monterey, Calif.: As a male reading the introduction to this discussion, I just feel sad that you -- and much of society -- attributes a longing for genuine, human sucess only to women. I look forward to the day when that changes. I too long for success based on my true self and what I have come to see as a requirement for that: the support of friends and allies who know and understand me and my goals. I too was trained to be part of "the system" and misled to find my satisfaction in materialistic rewards and my support through conformity. So much for the "man's world" that women wanted so much to be a part of. Way back when, I remember thinking about women: "Really? You want it? You can have it. It sucks." I'm glad some women are also learning the true meaning of success. There are a lot of women who took on the mens' (corporate?)definition and have proved themselves capable of becoming just as cold, incompetent, and oppressive as the men. Fawn Germer: You make some good points. But, I don't think anyone has ever thought women had cornered the market on ambition and drive. I do agree that some women have gotten into positions of power where they could really make a difference, but react to their positions by being "just as cold, incompetent, and oppressive as the men." Fortunately, I think these are definitely the exceptions. It's pretty heartening when I am out there speaking to groups women (and men) leaders who have visions that are destined to succeed because these individuals are able to inspire others to carry the mission forward. Washington, D.C.: What would your professional career advice be for a woman just starting out in her career? How do I establish myself professionally? Fawn Germer: Don't measure yourself by your successes, but rather, by your obstacles. The road is filled with them, and the better you expect, react and overcome them, the more you will succeed. Don't be intimidated by people waaaay above you on the corporate ladder. They are humans. Ask them for help. Get to know them. They will drive your success. And, above all, DO GOOD WORK. That is the bottom line to success and self-preservation. Bethesda, Md.: I recently found out that I was hired for my job because my supervisor had been getting grief that he had no minorities or women in his division. A colleague sent me a copy of an e-mail that my supervisior sent to Human Resources saying that now that he had hired me, that should quiet any further discontent about his not having any blacks or women in his unit. While I am well qualified for the position, I am a bit dismayed that this was the reason I was brought on board. I am feeling a bit compromised. And since I started work six months ago, he has made my life a living hell. Nothing I do satisfies him. I have tucked the e-mail away in case I need it in the future, but I am considering finding another job where the atmosphere is not quite as charged, and where I am hired for being qualified and not because I fit a profile. What do I tell a future potential employer about why I left after such a short time? Fawn Germer: Obviously, that jerk is a lawsuit waiting to happen. The problem is, you don't want to build a career on lawsuits -- and shouldn't have to. There's a chapter on documenting things like this in my first book, Hard Won Wisdom. I suggest documenting what you have to document, but communicating to him that you care about your job and want to do good work. I would not threaten him because he sounds like the kind of jerk that, once threatened, will do his best to kill you. When you have exhausted your efforts with him, then go to human resources. He's really screwing up HIS job, not yours. Hang in there. Find other women outside of work who can give you the support you need. Rockville, Md.: One of the best lessons I ever learned from a woman in the workplace came from Carol Simpson at ABC News. She told me to learn how to do everything so that I would become so valuable, my job security would be assured. She was right. Fawn Germer: I totally agree. And Carole is such a mustang! Re: Martyrs: I think you misunderstood my question. I totally respect and admire these women for what they went through. What I don't appreciate is THEIR attitude that I MUST also make these huge sacrifices BECAUSE they did. I try and connect with them, but all I get is an earful of how "lazy" my generation is. It's hard to accept the moniker of lazy when I work a 50 hour week, go home to take care of my infant child, manage to squeeze in daily exercise, pay my bills etc. etc. Fawn Germer: Okay, I did misunderstand and you are right. You don't have to work an 80-hour week because those women did. And, if they had kids, you bet they still feel guilty for what they missed. I suggest you just let them know how you appreciate that they blazed trail so that you could be a decent parent. Don't get into it with them because they truly did make a difference. But, they shouldn't get into it with you, either, because your first job is to make sure your child adds to this world, rather than takes from it. Thanks for writing back. Woodbridge, Va.: Not a question, just a comment. I'm 40 and a paralegal in an interesting field. I finally hit my own personal jackpot. But there are women out there who don't necessarily want to climb the corporate ladder. THAT'S OK. Do what makes YOU satisfied and stop worrying about what everyone else thinks. If you want to climb, then go for it. Corporate ambition and drive are not for everyone. Don't let your choices put you on a guilt trip. Fawn Germer: Absolutely! Your only job is to be the best at being "YOU." That doesn't mean every woman has to strive for the top of the corporate heap. Just find meaning in what matters to you. Washington, D.C.: How can a woman seek out women mentors, or become a mentor for younger women, without being accused of "favoritism"? Thanks! Fawn Germer: Don't worry about what other people are saying. Get a mentor and be a mentor. Network up to move yourself up, network down to help the next one up. It's all very simple. No one should resent one person helping the next. They have the right to network, too. Washington, D.C.: In your answer to Washington, D.C., I think the operative phrase is "when I was married." To be married involves compromises on both parts, true, but when she married a lawyer who is licensed in a state and his practice is tied to a firm, she made a commitment. Surely she can pursue her dreams without moving out of state for three years! I never heard of a career path or educational program that absolutely required moving for three years. Fawn Germer: Good point. Fairfax, Va.: Message to Anytown, USA: Consider cutting the office Dad some slack. I was in a similar situation after my first child was born. My wife sufferred from severe post-partum depression and did not want to be left alone with our baby for very long. Although I told only my boss and not my co-workers, those who were gracious or overlooked the distraction heartened me and in their quiet way helped me through this. A couple years later, my wife is healthy, but those first few weeks/months can be a terrible hard and dark time for some. Fawn Germer: Okay, I'm not the one to ask about this because I don't have kids and I get completely unnerved at the sound of a crying baby. But, you do have a good point. Isn't it amazing to see a DAD bringing the baby to work? (Still, I think the other worker has a right to some solitude in the office) Colorado Springs, Colorado: I somehow have gotten the "troublemaker" label at work and don't know how to shake it. I have tried to choose my battles carefully, and have picked ones that I was absolutely right about fighting. How do I get rid of the label? Fawn Germer: You have to be very careful about the battles you choose. Once you get the label, it's hard to be heard about anything. People just roll their eyes and think, "Not again." Believe me, I know. I've been there. I've had that label. It stinks. You fight for what is right and get burned because of it. The best piece of advice I got was how important it is to fight your battles knowing your No. 1 objective is survive to fight another day. You've got to remain effective. If you are able to laugh (out loud) about some of your fiercer moments, fight fewer battles for awhile and then choose the issues you must support, you might be able to regain credibility. washingtonpost.com: Everyone Fawn has to go now, hope you enjoyed today's discussion. Thanks for joining us.     Click here to read more     Click here to read more     Click here to read more           Copyright 2007 Fawn Germer. All rights reseved.